This is a very long entry. Don't say I didn't warn you.
On both the videoblogging group and the Show in a Box (SIAB) working group the question of How do we best present video on the internet? has come up multiple times over the past 3-5 months. It is a vital question for the average videoblogger who wants to improve his or her site and especially for groups like Show in a Box which are trying to create software and designs that help present videos in their best light.
However, the discussions on those lists are mixing together three separate issues to answer the question of how to best present video on blogs. I will outline the three issues below and attempt to explain why it is important to solve these separately.
The three issues are:
I’ll be using the SIAB project as the main case for illustration my points below.
I sincerely hope there are as many answers to this issue as there are videoblogs. The biggest downside to the SIAB project right now is that they actually don’t have any video centric themes available yet. For a while they had a single theme available with the result that every SIAB videoblog looked the same.
They know this is their biggest drawback, but themes (especially Wordpress themes that deal with non-traditional content types) are hard to write. I also strongly believe that every videoblog has different needs. It is not a solution to slap a list of thumbnails on a page and call it a day. While including thumbnails on archive listings gives flavour, the thumbnail alone does not provide readers with enough information to determine if a given video is worth watching. It bothers me when I see mockups of archive pages that contains nothing but thumbnails. How is that an improvement over what blogs have now? Look at how 23visual has designed their visual blogs (example). They give a strong focus to the photo itself—they are a photo blog provider—but they also include additional information to help you interpret what’s going on. Titles, authors and dates are shown.
Thumbnails are fine, but they can very rarely stand on their own. You need to figure out what works best for your individual blog.
The question of how to get more structured data into your videoblogging posts has generated surprisingly little discussion, maybe because there are no good videoblogging developer discussion lists.
Or perhaps the discussions are not happening because this is not a video problem, it’s a general problem. The question is not about attaching thumbnails and video URLs to blog posts, but how to attach any kind of arbitrary data to a post. For that reason, it’s unfortunate that SIAB has been focusing solely on videos in this regard. It is impossible for the SIAB developers to build upon the works of others for this general issue, and it is impossible for others to extend the works of SIAB.
For this reason, I feel that the choice of using Wordpress as the base for SIAB is strange. Using a different option that is more framework-y and less blog-y gives developers better opportunities. Drupal, for example, has had a general way of attaching arbitrary data to content for years through CCK and related modules. Rather than re-inventing the wheel, it would be rational to build upon the works of others because this is a general problem. In addition interoperability becomes smoother since you are basing your work off a common framework.
Lots of people have complained over time about the difficulties connecting old and new content on their sites. Mark, for instance, doesn’t like the ‘diary’ style of the blog as he feels it buries his content fast. I’ve heard the same argument from both Jay and Raymond, especially as a selling point for SIAB’s Related Videos plugin.
The discussion tends to be around blogs in general (mostly how blogs suck) and not really about videos. The Related Videos plugin should be called Related Posts because it is—or should be—a way to manually link a post together with a number of previously posted content. Not to be confused with the handful of Wordpress plugins that deal with automatically creating these lists of related posts based on tags or keywords.
“But the Related Videos plugin automatically inserts thumbnails of the related videos.” Yes, and it should stop doing that. Displaying the related content is a design decision and should be kept separate from the functionality of linking related content together.
There seems to be a strong dislike for the blog style or diary form. As far as I can tell this covers showing the most recent posts on the front page and using monthly archives. But while I understand this complaint, I cannot see how removing these features of a blog will result in better reuse of older content.
Displaying the most recent posts prominently on the front page has been the defining property of blogs for the past 10 years for a reason. It is a very convenient way of establishing what is going on at the blog and what content you have not seen since your last visit. Ryan Is Hungry is one of many videoblogs that have chosen to remove this blog stable by only having the lastest post on the front page making it hard for returning visitors to see what has been posted since their last visit. On the other hand, Mike Moon—using a similar layout—keeps the most recent 10 posts on his front page. The result is a better overview of the lastest content, as well as his archive.
Using monthly archives is noted by Mark as a pretty poor way of locating older content when it’s the only archive available. It does however still have a place and removing them makes little sense.
Depending on your blog you will have different needs for re-connecting with older content. This is something we thought much about when we created OurHoist. On an OurHoist site, you have several entry points to find previously published content (in OurHoist we are only concerned with locating old content, not about creating connections when publishing fresh content). Our variables are people (who posted this), time (when was it posted/updated), tags & related tags (how was it described) and type (was it a discussion item, a page or a file). You almost always know at least one or two of the answers, and we give you the opportunity to combine your knowledge using our super slick interface (“I know it’s a file about toy cars and was posted in the past three weeks or so”).
Two distinct videoblogs handle this problem in two different ways. Lost in Light digitizes old home movies and have other needs. There they re-connect new content to older by factors like the format of the video (Super 8, 8mm etc.) and the decade the movies is from (1940s, 1960s etc.). For their blog the publishing date only matters as a measure for those visitors who need to see what’s new since the last visit. On the other hand, Ryan is Hungry uses the Related Videos plugin where new posts are manually connected to older ones. This must be because they cover a wide range of topics and have a hard time automating the related posts.
My point here is simply that this issue is not a video centric problem either. It’s something that needs to be evaluated on a blog-by-blog basis. There are some common denominators in the default blog software setups namely time-based archives and tags/categories. If you find these inadequate it is not a reason to denounce bloggyness. Instead realize that you have a strong platform to build on. There is no reason to start over from scratch. Seeing the thumbnails as part of the design and developer issues rather than a part of the problem of re-connecting old content allows you to re-use the modules and plugins that already exist and work today. There is no need to re-invent them.
Of the three issues raised only one, the design issue, is actually a video centric problem. Both developer and connection issues are not specifically related to video content although they are being talked about (and developed) as if they were. This is a mistake, ensuring that work is being done while someone else has already solved the issue.
Writing this has made me wonder how far one can come today without writing any code yourself other than regular HTML. Drupal seems to be the perfect framework for a blog that needs to be more than monthly archives and tag pages. It has a strong and separate theme layer allowing designers to create flexible layouts without having to know PHP. There are strong generalized modules (Views, CCK, embedded media field etc.) that allow non-programmers to set up structured data and create display lists based off them. Finally, it is possible to create install profiles allowing you to setup a specialized video blog Drupal package so non-hackers only need to download files and click buttons to get started.
It should be an interesting project to see how far you can get today in Drupal without writing any additional modules and just combine what is already out there today. I bet you can get close to the 90% mark when trying to setup a videoblog that has thumbnails galore and related content and other methods of combining new content with old. The only pre-requisite being that you have to write the HTML that makes up your theme yourself.
This is the personal website of Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen: commentary on media, communication, culture and technology. Read more»
I'm glad you blogged about this. It's a lot to chew, so let's begin. You are obviously advocating Drupal as the new platform for videobloggers instead of Wordpress. Since I'm not a Drupal user, you'll need to educate me in this discussion.
The design issue:
--I agree that SIAB should just be one piece of the puzzle. The fact that it can create this conversation is a win.
--yes, SIAB doesn't have any specific videocentric themes yet. That's being worked on now. With Drupal, is there less work designing the page the way we want? I like easy.
--hmm....not sure why you're so against thumbnails. Or maybe you think I don't like text? I think we're just misunderstanding each other on this one. I simply see many VIDEOblogs with only TEXT links. Nothing wrong with text, but why not add more images along with the text?
The developer issue:
Since Im not a developer, I cant address the tech issues you bring up about Wordpress and Drupal. I know very few people who build in Drupal (you, markus, kent). My experience has always been that it was difficult for the average person to install and customize. Is it as easy as installing wordpress these days? I always assumed that Drupal was for building communities, not a personal blog. I know Drupal has been evolving quickly, so maybe its ready for the average Joe like me?
The connection issue:
--Again, I'm thinking we may be misunderstanding each other. Aaron's mockup for a new LIL vlog wont be wordless. He simply choose to not add text in his photoshop mockup :)
--you point to our videoblog Ryanishungry several times, so Ill respond. I agree that the theme isn't perfect. We designed it in the early days of SIAB (8 months ago), and it demonstrates well where we need to improve. I do however like this design better than what we had before. When I send people the link, it feels clean and simple. My dad can see the images we choose to represent our work. It doesnt feel like a blog to him. He just clicks pictures. We would have used existing WP plugins but they were just manipulating text. Now we have thumbnails AND text. (just a small correction, we do have Recent Videos at the bottom of the page. The Videopress plugins allows you to display text and images. We just chose to have images for a clean look..like you chose with the Recent Photos in the Upper right hand corner of this blog.)
Conclusion:
The whole point is to keep inviting visual creators into this world by giving them tools that help them make their work look god. Sit down with any video creator who doesn't know the web that well. Find out what they are missing to get into the web full force. Usually they will say that they dont know how to build a website they would like, they cant afford someone to build it for them, and youtube makes their work look like shit. I really want their storytelling abilities online so we can move beyond tech and into storytelling, connecting.
You are completely correct in saying that every videoblog has different needs. I started brainstorming a list of different kinds of video projects: http://showinabox.pbwiki.com/mockups You start by designing some basic designs in Wordpress/Drupal for different kinds of video projects...and let people customize from there.
I'm all about anything that works. If Drupal is it, then let's get into it. Show us examples. You should start the videoblogging developer list. Lead the way if its a better one.
You don't have to have the Thumbnails show up with the Related Videos plugin. That's only if you use the widget.
(Not sure how much you know about the WordPress API, but....) You can get a list of the Related Videos by using the WordPress $post or $posts global.
As in $post->related_videos or $posts[i]->related_videos
(WordPress does alot of things through those 2 globals.)
More info about that here: http://changelog.ca/project/VideoPress_Related_Videos
Regarding the "developer issue", have you seen this?... http://docs.newtube.org/page/WordPress_Video_API
It's how we are passing "video info" around inside of WordPress.
A number of the complaints you raised seemed to be usability issues. And I always want to hear that kind of feedback! It helps us improve.
-- Charles Iliya Krempeaux
http://changelog.ca/
Thank you for clearing up my misconceptions, Jay. I went with what I saw on the SIAB wiki (and that old discussion I had to dig out from my memory). I’m happy to hear that Aaron isn’t planning on using just a page of thumbnails for Lost in Light. I thought they had a good setup with using categories for the film’s decade and format. It was just an example, there are more of those.
I know you guys are working on themes for SIAB (but I don’t know how close you are). It’s a very commendable effort. As I pointed out good themes are very hard to make. I have not heard of groups aside from SIAB who are actively working on creating open-source themes specifically for videobloggers. You’re definitely on the cutting edge there.
Re. Ryan in Hungry. I was actually going to alternate between pointing the Ryan is Hungry for the related videos and Twittervlog for the use of only one post on the front page. When I went to Twittervlog I discovered that Rupert had changed the site and he now has several videos on the front page, diary style! So I had to use your site twice as an example. I think the related videos on Ryan is Hungry work very well (because you included a description with each video), but the single post on the front page and the recent videos at the bottom doesn’t do much to help me as a returning visitor.
I’m not against thumbnails. For visual content they are important. But they are not the solution to everything and that is the impression (false or not) I’ve been getting. Thumbnails work well to complement all the other information that a visitor need to make informed decisions on how to act on a site. They are a means, not a goal.
I’m advocating Drupal for my own use, but I’m not a part of the SIAB work and I can’t recommend that SIAB goes in one direction or another, that’s for you guys to decide amongst yourselves. You also have more factors to consider than the merit of the software platform (e.g. how familiar your developers and themers are with one platform over another).
As someone who has developed for and been a user of both Wordpress and Drupal I am in a position where I can compare and contrast the two. To put it simply Drupal is a general framework that is extremely developer friendly and Wordpress is a specialized blogging tool that is more end user friendly.
That is not to say that Drupal is impossible for end users and Wordpress is impossible for developers. They are tendencies, not absolutes. It does make a big difference when you are trying to create something new. Wordpress is designed to do one thing: Make a blog. And it’s good at it. Drupal is designed to be a general framework for web sites/applications. And it’s good at it.
Problems arise with Wordpress when you try to make it do something it was not really meant to do in the first place. This includes adding structured data like video and thumbnail information to a post. It can be done, but Wordpress was really not meant for it so it takes a lot of extra effort as a developer to work it in. This issue comes up time and time again when you want Wordpress to do more than publish simple posts. One day you get the crazy idea that you’d like to give your visitors the ability to tag your post, the next day you decide that it would be cool to show off the video with the most comments in the last 24 hours in your sidebar. Those are simple examples, but hard to do inside Wordpress because the system was not designed as a general framework (unlike Drupal that was designed to handle all these weird scenarios).
The result in Wordpress: You end up with much programming logic inside your theme with all the trouble that includes. It makes upgrading a pain in the ass because you cannot upgrade functionality and presentation separately (you will cry when you need to install a security upgrade that breaks your theme). More importantly it makes theming much harder than it should be because your themers now need a more-than-basic understanding of PHP before they can do their work. Drupal 6 in particular carries a great advantage over Wordpress in that regard.
From the developer point of view (to address Charles) Drupal has a collection of rock-solid and well-documented APIs covering the entire system. This is not limited to acting on system events (hooks), but also APIs for the menu system, form generation/validation, file system and most importantly the node API (for interaction with all types of content, called ‘nodes’ in Drupal terminology). Wordpress doesn’t even have a menu system built in! The result again tends to be hacking the theme to include your menu (giving the average joe no upgrade path when newer versions of the theme becomes available).
Drupal does have a steeper learning curve than Wordpress. Because it is a generalized system you have more option across the board. for the common tasks (writing, editing, installing plugins/modules) there are hardly any differences between the two. With the major difference that the admin area in Drupal is fully themeable so a themer can change the look of the admin system as well as the public site. That’s not something you can do in Wordpress. Installation of Wordpress and Drupal are the same these days.
Part of this is deciding who you are creating for. If you are creating it for visual creators who are afraid of websites you are facing an almost impossible battle. It is like telling yourself that you’re making an connect-the-dots picture book for people who don’t want to use crayons. It just won’t work out, those people are best served by hosted solutions where they can’t customize and can receive direct support. SIAB doesn’t work for them and it never will. If you are designing for visual creators who are not afraid of the web then you have a goal you have an honest chance of reaching. At the same time the slightly steeper learning curve for Drupal becomes a non-issue.
As for leading the way? I like to think I am by writing these words. I cannot write your code for you. I hope you see my words as valuable even if I don't assemble the entire project for you. Do you have such high requirements for all people who provide input about SIAB (the "don't tell us, do it for us" attitude)?
I don't feel for this as strongly as you and the rest of the SIAB group does and I have other projects that I feel more strongly about so forgive me if I don't jump in to write code right away. I'll be doing some work as I leverage the powers of Drupal on this site and I will of course release my secrets after I figure things out.
I'm a sideline spectator and I'm grateful that you listen to what I have to say. I have no illusions that SIAB will switch to Drupal or another application framework since you have other factors to concern. I do hope that my words make you understand that there are alternatives out there who are more suited for SIAB-like projects in the long run.
Well said. Markus has explained to me before how much easier it is for him to make Drupal do things that Wordpress takes considerable hacking. Charles told me he'd rather just build something from scratch. But as you say, it's also thinking about the existing WP community, and experience that vloggers already have with WP. These are invaluable.
Your best question is, who are we making this for?
Its an evolving understanding for me since I'm learning Wordpress as this process unfolds.
Im like the perfect "dummy" to test things out.
Yes, I'd love to see themes that would attract talented video creators.
And yes, Wordpress is not a simple operation if they are new to the web.
So how do we reconcile the two?
I guess you first make a workflow that's as simple as possible. Create tool that need as little hacking as possible. Then you build the tutorials...and make sure there's a support community to help.
Your words here are helpful. I'll definitely keep an eye on Drupal. For me, successful examples are always the best. An hearing stories about what works. As you say, we're balancing what we think people need, with what people really want, with what people are able to understand, with what we're actually able to build between everything else we do. And then you have to get enough people excited about it for it to matter.
I love that since the beginning we're just making it all up.
Add your comment